That Contentious Black White Power Rat

OK back to the chronology of events for just a bit...(and a note that this post from LGF came one day after and during the commenting on the thread of the post Disinformation Being Spread By Belgium? over at GoV, please don't miss those comments....)


Well, the fight between GoV and LGF just wouldn't be complete without the incessant squabbling over various symbols found in reports and literature pertaining to the Flemish nationalist/separatist party Vlaams Belang. One of these curious symbols, oddly enough, is a cartoon rat wearing an armband described as everything from a "White Power Cross" to an Odin's Cross all the way to a Celtic Cross (which really is not the same nor does it have the same meaning or symbolic value as the Odin's/ Sun Cross). This troublesome rat was first posted about, though no one had a clue admittedly to its meaning, by Charles Johnson on November 6th.

Apparently, this was in response to a post that, in Mr. Johnson's words, implied that he had "been “taken in” by Belgian agents provocateurs, who have infiltrated the Vlaams Belang party for the purpose of discrediting it. The theory goes: all the evidence I’ve posted to date is “disinformation.” All of it."

I will leave this one for readers to decide, as it was quite the contentious issue, still with some soon-to-be-banned lizards still commenting in the LGF trenches. There just happened to be plenty of lovely pictures to sport of this handy little rat and his Odin's Cross, not the least of which was found and posted at LGF from a video including a close-up of Filip DeWinter's (of VB) bookshelf, below. Yes, as the debate goes on to the point of pain, crosses of many different historical designs can be used for various reasons by various people, not all of them nefarious. However, there are certain symbols considered sacred by certain people and at certain points in time which are now used so much by neo-Nazi groups that no matter what one's intentions may be, one is understandably reticent to use the symbol publicly. Think of the ancient nature of the use of the swastika in the East and the use of this symbol by those from India who live in the West now. Throw in a dash of the Confederate Battle Flag as well. I have relatives who fought for the Confederacy myself, but I know darned well that if I used that flag in my writings or for something casual or representative of me that the basic interpretation would be "ignorant white trash bigot". This symbol is similarly sullied, though that does nothing to quell endless rantings about said rat bastard and his little cross.


But where would we all be without the comments? Let's peruse some nuggets of, well, humor, occasional idiocy and occasional wisdom as well, shall we?

#16 vagabond trader 11/06/07 11:30:16 am

Well, I do not require a knock on the head to comprehend what is going on with these educated,scrubbed up white EUtopians. Sorry your continent is fast becoming a PC sh*thole, but that's what happens when you exchange educated, assimilated, patriotic Jews for what you have now. Good luck.

#19 coquimbojoe 11/06/07 11:30:52 am
re: #7 coquimbojoe

There is no doubt to the origins and motivations of Vlaams Belang. I hope there is no longer a need to dwell on these fools. In the future people of good will should just see VB and the their ilk, and say, I'm not gonna be seen with them.....

I would love to know what Pamela's thinking now....

And there's my answer...she's interviewing Paul Belien on the radio today. Nice. I agree with VB's stances on the dangers of Islamo-fascism, but I don't like any other kind of fascism.... I don't like any racism either. I would never associate with these people despite the fact we might have some stances in common.

#136 zuckerlilly 11/06/07 12:23:57 pm reply quote report 0

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

re: #110 zuckerlilly


Very interesting comments here


They choose to see what they want to see and fail to see the rest.

To those commenters on Gates of Vienna, what does this rat and the cartoon above mean to you?

We're waiting for your answers - operators are standing by.

You bite the wrong one ;-)

#158 ContraJihadi 11/06/07 12:37:15 pm

Those who defend VB point out that much of the criticism comes from the left, who partisans may be planting false flags. It is true that just because a socialist calls a party "right wing," that doesn't it itself mean that the party is fascist as we understand the term. But nobody who has defended VB has given an exculpatory answer (or any at all, really) about the Odin's Cross in the "map" film or in the youth journal's picture of the rat.

It is though none of them wants to confront this issue. This raises my suspicious too. It may be that many, perhaps most, of the Europeans on the street who support VB are just patriots concerned about the threat jihad presents to the civil order and to the culture, but I cannot dismiss my doubts about the leaders.

#218 Killgore Trout 11/06/07 1:02:24 pm
re: #190 konservo

The author leaves the first comment....

Yesterday I did a post which contained two inflammatory statements. The first was the title: "IF EUROPE IS TO SURVIVE, IT WILL HAVE TO DEPORT ALL MUSLIMS. REPEAT. ALL OF THEM." The second one could be found towards the end: "The cancer of islam must be eradicated."

A man should never take important decisions when he is angry. I took the decision to post these very harsh statements in a state of utmost anger. In the light of a new day, I now feel that the first statement is unfair towards a certain percentage of muslims - a rather small percentage though, I fear. With regards to the second statement, I feel compelled to say that even at the precise moment that I wrote it down, I only had in mind eradication of an ideology, not of people.

I guess that's what you get from the typical VB member.

#219 NY Nana 11/06/07 1:03:50 pm

If anyone has seen Pamela's blog today, she is not only delusional, but admiring Paul Belien, Brussels Journal, and doing an interview with him. WTF is wrong? Is she now a Zombie? (No, not our zombie!)

Jumped the shark? That is way too kind.

Alas, say good-bye to any veneer of civility:

#286 stvip 11/06/07 2:07:55 pm
re: #256 jeppo

You haven't proved anything with that post (and let's be completely clear on this - the burden of proof is now on Vlaams Belang, not us; this point seems to consistently elude you). But suppose you are correct, and the rat has nothing to do with VB. Let's say it was made by a group opposing VB to mock them. What do you have to say about all the other evidence? I have yet to see a rebuttal from you beginning to approach having substance.
You seem to really want to believe in the rectitude of VB, so you begin by assuming their innocence, then demand proof of a courtroom standard. Perhaps a court could not convict them of wrongdoing (after all, that was the whole point of changing the name to "Vlaams Belang" from "Vlaams Blok" - work around the legal limitations by censoring their documents, obfuscating their beliefs and making sure they have plausible deniability). Need I insult your intelligence by pointing out why the procedures of a court do not apply here?
Furthermore, suppose, for the sake of the ridiculous argument, that they truly are not racist-fascist. It would still be a wrong move, in the practical sense of real-politik, to associate with them. Again, do I really need to point out why?

So why do you continue to cling to any faint hope, any evanescent shred of possible evidence, that they could be exonerated? We do not want them. We do not need them.

Jeppo strikes back:

#305 jeppo 11/06/07 2:30:40 pm

re: #286 stvip

You make some intelligent and interesting points. The reason I keep demanding proof that the VB are Nazis, fascists, white supremacists and anti-Semites are so the hysterical slurs against the VB will stop so we can conduct this debate rationally, not emotionally. No one here, nor anywhere else has provided proof of the above charges.

If people really want to hang an epithet on the VB, then use "Islamophobic". Even though there are Muslim members and officials of the VB, I think that that the Islamophobe label is probably accurate.

Now here's the zinger:

#310 Josephine 11/06/07 2:36:08 pm
Dymphna's comment on that GoV post is revealing:

"The Baron worked for months on the conference in ANtwerp and Belgium, being chronically sleep=deprived in order to pull it off.

"The immediate sneering smackdown, from some commenter of LGF who calls himself Dave of Sweeden was put on the front page of the post itself.Rude and un-called for, his complaints were unsourced -- in the beginning. Once they resorted to 'sources' those were questionable, to say the least.

"All along, we kept Chrles and other bloggers in the loop for months before the event. He never responded, but we didn't take that as ominous. It was only when I informed him that the conference had taken place and given him a link to what the Baron had written about it AND then gone over to his site to see his immediate questioning of the whole thing that I began to have questions about the man's integrity.

"As it unfolded and he began to sit right in the middle of the comments, egging people on, I realized we'd been set up."

She seems to be saying that:
- Charles Johnson had this "disinformation" all along but withheld it in order to set them up. (To what end, she doesn't say.)
- Mr. Johnson ominously let the well-intentioned Baron work his butt off and go without sleep for months without saying anything to promote the conference.
- Mr. Johnson's immediate, rude, uncalled for, unsourced sneering smackdown revealed his lack of integrity. (Her words, not mine.)

I think, based also on part of her comment that I didn't copy here (it's too rude):
- Dymphna and Baron immediately assumed the worst about Charles Johnson and his motives. They already had a somewhat low opinion of his character and this confirmed it for them in spades.
- Their feelings were hurt and they went on the attack.

You can learn a lot about someone when you have a disagreement with them.

I personally don't stay in relationships in which people don't fight fair.

Whoa-oa-oa-oa Nellie! Is this the heart of all of the bitterness? And where is this comment that is "too rude" for Josephine to copy? Oh that's right, it's right here.

#443 Charles 11/06/07 4:42:56 pm

By the way, the more information that turns up around this issue, the more amazed I am at the position taken by Brussels Journal and Gates of Vienna. They seem to have been able to convince themselves this would never be an issue. Surely they must have realized that they were going to be challenged on the association with Vlaams Belang and Sweden Democrats.

These controversies aren't exactly huge secrets.

So, will everyone forgive me for not going through all of the other comments too thoroughly? This is really the beginning of a dreadful phase of internecine blog warfare, and I think these comments sort of sum up the gist of things. One other comment is interesting only because of the person who left it, a woman who uses the name 1389 and is now rabidly anti-LGF, very pro-GoV and whom I have spotted now at numerous sites trying to defend her usually extreme positions (1389 is an example of one of the disgruntled banned Lizards who now tar Charles Johnson and LGF as being far too "liberal" for their kind). Much more on 1389 later though. For now, just her comment with the link from the original thread:

#598 1389 11/07/07 10:32:53 pm
re: #324 Salem

Are there crypto-nazis that need to be flushed out outside of Sweden and Belgium? Say America? Wouldn't that be a hoot!

Ummm, yeah.

Some neo-Nazis make de facto common cause with the Muslims, such as this one.

More about him here, with some shocking pix.

As if all that were not enough, this evil individual is currently touring the US and Canada!

Ahhh, 1389 would be tedious even if her site didn't crash browsers. Thank you all for joining me for another exciting chapter of Gates of Vienna (and CVF) Vs. The World Vs. LGF Vs. IBA Vs. Run for it, Baron is taking over the world! Please join us next time for posts such as Gates of Vienna Leaves the Infidel Bloggers Alliance After Failed Coup Attempt and Gates of Vienna's Flights of Fantasy (Fiction). Trust me, the "fantasy fiction" posts (yes, they posted more than one) are all that I promise and more.